I was ranting to my father about the whole dust-up with Senator Durbin (D-IL) supposedly comparing our troops to Nazis (he didn't), and he had an interesting response - the Democrats were on the wrong side of this torture thing, and he didn't agree with them.
My dad is a former history teacher with ABD (all but dissertation) academic status under his belt, so he's not ignorant when it comes to placing Policy in historical context. Now, he lives in Springfield, IL and works as a financial advisor. He's also a VERY conservative Democrat - especially fiscal issues. Actually, he'd say that he's nether Dem or Republican, but I think he does lean Democrat.
His first reaction was disbelief, when I mentioned any sort of torture or murder going on in U.S.-run prisons outside the country. "I don't know where your statistics and stories are coming from," he said, when I reeled off things like 37 murders, 108 dead under "questionable circumstances, 90% of those imprisoned were innocent" and various instances of actions that could be at the very least construed as torture-lite.
When I pointed out that they came from official Department of Defense reports, from official FBI reports, and from official Red Cross International reports, and that they had been reported in the NY Times, the Washington Post, the major broadcast networks, and even the conservative Wall Street Journal, he then switched to the 9/11 argument. "I think most people in this country don't care about that, because of what 'they' did to us on 9/11."
When I pointed out again that according to offocial DoD reports, as many as 90% of those imprisoned were innocent, he again cited 9/11, and offered up a nice version of the kill-em-all-and-let-god-sort-em-out argument.
When I also pointed out that the majority of this torture-lite and these murders were taking place in prisons in Iraq, which had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 (which he KNOWS), he ended the discussion.
I've found that my father is a fantastic barometer of how the middle of the country - the lion's share of our population - thinks. He's not by any means a fan of the Bush administration. In fact, he has called them the worst White House in his memory. But when it comes to this War on Terror, he swallows the rhetoric - hook, line and sinker.
Why is that? What am I missing? What are the Democrats missing? Seriously. Someone chime in here, because I really don't get why the majority of the country feels this way. It doesn't seem logical to me.
My dad is a former history teacher with ABD (all but dissertation) academic status under his belt, so he's not ignorant when it comes to placing Policy in historical context. Now, he lives in Springfield, IL and works as a financial advisor. He's also a VERY conservative Democrat - especially fiscal issues. Actually, he'd say that he's nether Dem or Republican, but I think he does lean Democrat.
His first reaction was disbelief, when I mentioned any sort of torture or murder going on in U.S.-run prisons outside the country. "I don't know where your statistics and stories are coming from," he said, when I reeled off things like 37 murders, 108 dead under "questionable circumstances, 90% of those imprisoned were innocent" and various instances of actions that could be at the very least construed as torture-lite.
When I pointed out that they came from official Department of Defense reports, from official FBI reports, and from official Red Cross International reports, and that they had been reported in the NY Times, the Washington Post, the major broadcast networks, and even the conservative Wall Street Journal, he then switched to the 9/11 argument. "I think most people in this country don't care about that, because of what 'they' did to us on 9/11."
When I pointed out again that according to offocial DoD reports, as many as 90% of those imprisoned were innocent, he again cited 9/11, and offered up a nice version of the kill-em-all-and-let-god-sort-em-out argument.
When I also pointed out that the majority of this torture-lite and these murders were taking place in prisons in Iraq, which had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 (which he KNOWS), he ended the discussion.
I've found that my father is a fantastic barometer of how the middle of the country - the lion's share of our population - thinks. He's not by any means a fan of the Bush administration. In fact, he has called them the worst White House in his memory. But when it comes to this War on Terror, he swallows the rhetoric - hook, line and sinker.
Why is that? What am I missing? What are the Democrats missing? Seriously. Someone chime in here, because I really don't get why the majority of the country feels this way. It doesn't seem logical to me.
posted by isaacjosephson at 5:35 AM
3 Comments:
too many ppl see 9//11 as sysnonomous with the war in Iraq. The administration, although it has acknowledged that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, has done a nice job of sweeping it under a rug. They have also tried to downplay the torture/death statistics that you've mentioned. How much face time are those getting on CNN/MSNBC/FOX News/ ABC?
Plus Nazi's were bad, we're the good guys right? How often since WW2 have similar things happened (not on that grand scale, but...) yet people are afraid to a) step in and b) make the comparison.
plus, at times dad is more stubborn than the two of us put together.
It IS hard for many people to believe that all of these shenanigans and such could be true AND so underreported (or UNreported). It does boggle the mind--but that, of course, is the classic totalitarian strategy. I think all one can do is keep saying the truth, pointing at it, compiling it, etc. The news outlets aren't going to keep the story on the front pages, so wehave to in our own conversations. Do you think Senator Hillary will help? Hah! She throws a little red meat to the leftys, but she's totally hand tied. Who, among those who need convincing, cares what she says?
So who's the person to point it out? Um, someone moderate and pretty inoffensive... like...Durbin.
Oops.
He made the mistake of bringing up Stalin, the Nazis, Pol Pot, etc—when he should just have let the reports stand for themselves and demanded explanations. He didn't need the comparisons--they push buttons and set people on the defensive and distract from the fact that one cannot really develop a rational response that allows one to justify murder and torture. If nothing else, we all
know that torture is an inefficient means by which to gather intelligence (in that it often leads to the gathering of bad intelligence); and that torturing prisoners we take threatens the safety of those of our troops who have been taken prisoner and only weakens the moral ground we stand on when we object to poor treatment of our own troops.
Your dad, and other intelligent moderates, no doubt find the rhetoric Durbin used alienating. Regardless of the quality and abundance of the evidence, that
rhetoric IS alienating. Once the reality settles in, the rhetoric can recede to the background, but using it means that Durbin (and everyone whose opinion he represents) starts in a hole digging out, instead of on the high ground.
Once again, Democrats are being STUPID in their language. How is this possible when they probably have significantly more English and Philosophy majors
among them?
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